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Ronald |
| Sisth grade |
Friendly Face
Posts: 405
4/24/20 3:07 pm
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| I'm sorry |
autumn trees twice dead |
I double posted this now, but I made a mistake by putting it elsewhere.
that sincere consideration is to be given to these insightful words and it puts to the end the debate over who is the better Preacher.
Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 2 Cor. 3:5
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Just trying to slide another one by ya |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 50
4/24/20 3:32 pm
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| makes sense |
autumn trees twice dead |
"We preachers ought to think like great men, but speak like common people." -Roger Ascham.
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Just trying to slide another one by ya |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 50
4/25/20 4:02 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| I think it really depends on what the local church in question values. If they value an educated preacher, they will take education into consideration when evaluating their pastor. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
4/25/20 4:27 pm
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| Dr. Acts...now, now, now... |
Aaron Scott |
| Dr.Acts wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | Would I rather have Queen Elizabeth teach a class on geopolitics...or someone with a degree in political studies? I'd much rather have the Queen teach--she has 94 years of being in and around world politics--which trumps anything a political scientist can bring to the table. |
Queen Elizabeth received private training from none else but Henry Marten of Eton College and the Archbishop of Canterbury. Obviously not all of us can afford that, but if our Founding Fathers did what you said we would still be colonial royal subjects BTW which Bible College did you study at? |
When it comes to Queen Elizabeth II, you will recall that I was making the point that even in academics, academics can be of minor worth? My point was that it is her EXPERIENCE and not her degree that makes her valuable. For that matter, her degree, if I recall correctly, was art history or something similar.
One's monetary value to a local church is based on what that person can do for the local church. If that church desperately feels they need someone with a doctorate in theology, then maybe you can be of assistance. But if that church is like most churches, they are wanting someone to come and feed them from heaven...someone to preach a message that directs, encourages, convicts, and the such. No doubt you can be of assistance here, too. But so can a hundreds of other men for everyone that has your advanced education.
I have met a few men who have theology degrees that can tell me wonderful things about history, certain church fathers, and the such. I have met HUNDREDS of men who can help me get to heaven, can feed my soul, can deliver a word in season, and bring true insight, not just some little-known fact that I could have gotten from Wikipedia.
As a history teacher, I always look for those cool little "unknowns." And, yes, on occasion I can use them to dress up a sermon. But THAT is not what my church elected me pastor for. THAT is not what they take care of my family and I for. They do that, I trust, because I try to bring a message from God (and you no doubt do yourself).
The point remains: When it comes to pastoring a church, no one should be paid more JUST BECAUSE they have a degree. Period. Because that may not at all translate into actual spiritual ability.
Consider that I don't expect my church to pay me more because I have a college degree. I know that is WORTHLESS in terms of my church duties.
As far as the whole "who would I want to operate on me" thing...yes, a medical doctor. But how much more valuable is the human soul? If it's twice as valuable, then would you agree that one should have 16 years of college to become a pastor? Or what if--as is the case--the soul is INFINITELY more valuable than the physical body? Who could POSSIBLY get qualified to deal with that via academics?
Exaclty. NO ONE. So when it comes to the church, academics might impress the search committee, but it doesn't bother the devil at all. Nor does it do anything for the human soul. It is icing on the cake...it is NOT the cake. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
4/25/20 5:33 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| Dr.Acts wrote: | No it is firmly, absolutely and undeniably not the case with any field. In my field, they will not let you operate on a human being without being a doctor first. Why should we not allow people to operate on human souls without proper formal education? Because the risk is immense.
Would you entrust your whole youth group to a bus driver with no CDL license? Sure it could be done, but what are the risks? Sure non-surgeons operated during the Civil War and we ended up with a handicapped generation - about right for our churches today. While education is not guarantee for the anointing, it is certainly a guarantee against ignorance.
Bro. Dean,
I enjoyed your examples as I am personally familiar with some of them, but let's face it:
- your recent growth was promoted by AB who is working on his second doctorate
- while Bro. Williams was AB, you had a well functioning college on the camp ground and Patten College was a Church of God thing
- the ARC program promoted by the Church Bank was designed by well educated ministers
- the 24-to-double program you've bragged abut was crated by doctors in ministry
- your largest church in CA is pastored by a college graduate (both East and West campus), while the very anointed and respected by myself prior pastor didn't get very far with it
- how is bro. Duncan's Christian College doing in Sacramento doing?
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I will admit the A/G's are the fastest growing Pentecostal group for sure.
I don't think the college worked out in Rio Linda & these days Bro. Duncan has turned almost everything over to his son who used to be a A/G pastor.
As far as our biggest church is concerned, the current pastor has a huge name with elite status & is seen on Christian TV multiple times a day so I don't know if the education was the cause for that.
24toDouble was doing well before C-19 hit us & we are just like everyone else dead in the water with all of our ministries other than having 10 people gather.
As far as our college here in Fresno is concerned it was already closed when Williams was here - we did have Patten in Oakland but here in Fresno we had Master's Commission.
Don't get me wrong I admire a lot of pastor's who have advanced degrees but the advanced education doesn't equate into better ministries or bigger churches.
There are plenty of great/educated pastors who have incredible intelligence but their church doesn't show it.
I have a good friend with 3 earned doctorates & he's also an author with some great books (I'll spare his name) but his church is less than 40 people on a regular basis, in fact I think his intellect might have something to do with connectivity to the people.
His wife's dad (a retired pastor himself) has been a member of our church for a few years since the passing of his wife & this older man had a high school diploma with a much larger church but zero advanced degrees.
You're right, I wouldn't want an unlearned person to operate on me.
But I've seen a lot of guys who were anointed by the Holy Ghost preach messages with such powerful conviction that even the hardest heart seek God in the altars & that is something no surgeon can accomplish with a doctorate & a clinic.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
4/25/20 5:53 pm
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| Ignorance: |
Ronald |
| It is sad when a person who is not highly educated is considered ignorant. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 405
4/25/20 9:22 pm
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Dr.Acts |
It is sad when anointed person who earned education is considered not so anointed.
Is is also sad when a person with no doctorate tells you to inject disinfectant.
You wouldn't follow the no doctor's recommendation on yourself.
Please, do not experiment with no doctors on your church either.
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Imperium centratus delenda est
Just the facts
Dr. J.D. Acts |
Friendly Face
Posts: 104
4/26/20 12:06 pm
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| Dr. Acts.... |
Aaron Scott |
| Dr.Acts wrote: | It is sad when anointed person who earned education is considered not so anointed.
Is is also sad when a person with no doctorate tells you to inject disinfectant.
You wouldn't follow the no doctor's recommendation on yourself.
Please, do not experiment with no doctors on your church either.
So far, the experiment of using non-doctorates has been a roaring success. But then again, I've only been conducting it for over half-a-century.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
4/28/20 8:02 am
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Dr.Acts |
A man with a message is a powerful force.
A man with a message and education to back it up is unstoppable.
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Imperium centratus delenda est
Just the facts
Dr. J.D. Acts |
Friendly Face
Posts: 104
4/30/20 10:46 am
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| RE: NO |
Rick Metzgar Jr |
| I'm going to come at this from a different vantage point. First of all, I've never relied on the church for full time income. As much as that would be my prayer, I'm leaving that to God for his due time. I also have two degrees (A Pastoral degree and a Business degree). Both of which I use as a bi-vocational Pastor. I've met some guys who were as educated as anyone (PhD) who truly are not the best as Pastors, but they are studious and probably need to be a Professor. Yet, I've met Pastors with no degree and run thousands and are phenominal Pastors. I don't think there's one specific way to slice it. I think every circumstance is different and it's for each church to be able to determine together with their respective governing Boards. |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2003
4/30/20 2:19 pm
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Dr.Acts |
To answer the original OP, I am just going to come out and say it, though the rest of the usual suspects here are still being quite (for now).
We were presented in yesterday's screen conference with a Task Force. Mind you, most on the list had a Dr. before their names (earned or not).
The point: We are ALREADY paying higher salaries to people with doctorates (earned or not) in our organization. This answers OP IMHO...
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Imperium centratus delenda est
Just the facts
Dr. J.D. Acts |
Friendly Face
Posts: 104
4/30/20 3:43 pm
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| Re: THEY SHOULD ABSOLUTELY |
Resident Skeptic |
| brotherjames wrote: | be paid commensurate with their training and education. This is also assumed for those who have been in the ministry x amount of years. A 30 year veteran pastor with a BA or equivalent should be paid more than a newbie out of school even one with a MDiv.
The prior responses from some of the posters on this thread is exactly the attitude that far too many church people have regarding their pastors salaries. THey are offended it seems if the pastor might be paid more than they are, even though it is a professional position requiring the many more skill sets than the average congregant can do. That attitude is EXACTLY why we don't post our specific salaries in our annual financial report. Someone will always complain as to why the pastor is making such and such even though it is actually smaller than it should be considering his experience/education etc.
I guess we don't care about the scripture indicating the elders are worthy of "double honor" do we?
As an aside, a new graduate from a pharmaceutical college makes above $125000 to start. A 30 year veteran pastor of a good sized church with a MDiv is lucky if he makes $90000 total package. Now, we are not in it for the money (obviously) but if the church can afford it they should do as well as possible and the people should be thrilled that they are doing their best for God's man and his family. But often it seems they resent it. We wouldn't want someone to make more than we do, would we? |
Amen. Well said.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
5/15/20 7:33 am
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| What about general and state administrative positions? |
roughridercog |
Shouldn't it be the same for them? 
But only if they are earned degrees. (Had to put that in for OTCP)
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25305
5/29/20 7:30 am
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| Re: What about general and state administrative positions? |
roughridercog |
| roughridercog wrote: | Shouldn't it be the same for them?
But only if they are earned degrees. (Had to put that in for OTCP) |
What? No takers on this one?
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25305
6/20/20 9:38 am
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sadlytrue77 |
Farmer dont get paid for going to ag school. He gets paid for producing.
_________________
Hate to say it, but its true
New Orleans Bred, Mississippi Led, Hopefully Arizona will be home before I'm dead.
*OnceASaintsFanAlwaysASaintsFan* |
Friendly Face
Posts: 113
8/3/20 9:46 am
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Da Sheik |
| Many pastors are grossly underpaid, regardless of the degree(s) they’ve earned. (Not to mention they’re expected to be on call 24/7) |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1865
8/3/20 8:38 pm
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FLRon |
| Da Sheik wrote: | | Many pastors are grossly underpaid, regardless of the degree(s) they’ve earned. (Not to mention they’re expected to be on call 24/7) |
So true. My pastor for example doesn't get a full salary even though he regularly puts in 12-14 hour days, sometimes more than that. Who else would do that and not complain about it?
I also find the expectations of a pastor to be largely unrealistic, especially when those expectations carry over to his family.
It's really sad that professing Christians want to hold their pastor to a standard they themselves would find completely unacceptable for their own family.
_________________
“Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
Voddie Baucham |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 787
8/4/20 4:41 am
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| More than Preaching |
FG Minister |
I have been a pastor for three decades and I am in the pulpit only 45 minutes a week; yet I work at the church office 60+ hours each week. If the average pastor spends 15 hours developing a sermon, then I am spending 45 hours doing other stuff. So what do I do? Visit the sick and shut-in's in their homes and in facilities, prayer, administrative responsibilities, overseeing facility maintenance, planning future ministries etc.
But another thing I do is meet with people in the community, other pastors, and with new attendees to the church. When I am talking with an educated man and he asks me to defend Wesleyan/Arminianism -v- Calvinism, or why we do not baptize infants - I need to be ready to respond. I get all kinds of deep theological questions on a weekly basis, and I know many pastors who wouldn't have a clue as to how to engage in these discussions. Can you prove babies go to Heaven if they die? How do you know the Bible is the only religious book that is valid? How did the Canon get to us? And I could go on and on.
A pastor in today's world is not going to have all the answers, but if he has advanced degrees, he has been taught how to study and research and to form a coherent argument. Hopefully, his verbiage will also reflect that he has been educated.
I think a pastor should be well-prepared to meet with any person at any level and be able to witness to them. I have met with Congressmen in my office, a former Finance Minister from Pakistan, and have met with numerous Parliament members from around the world. And I pastor a small church of only 300 people - most are middle class. But if the church is to reach all people, pastor's need training not just to preach, but to converse and to earnestly contend for the faith with anybody at any level. So yes, a pastor with advanced degrees should be compensated for them, IF he is doing the work of Christ and is bringing value to that local church. Often times, the higher pay helps him pay off his loans from seminary! |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 875
8/15/20 7:57 am
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| Re: What about general and state administrative positions? |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| roughridercog wrote: | | roughridercog wrote: | Shouldn't it be the same for them?
But only if they are earned degrees. (Had to put that in for OTCP) |
What? No takers on this one? |
Since ain't nobody gonna help the old timer carry this cross, Rough, hey, I'll keep caryin it. Any administrative position oughtta offer a salary whats commensurate with legitimit education an all. Course, at rules out anything what ain't earned. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
8/26/20 11:37 am
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